AR Doctrines 101 Class

[Thedragonslayer]

It has been discussed and there has been some interest of an AR Build Class. Bass Ackwards did give a slight maybe that he would do this.

In a nut shell...

The idea of this class would be to take most all of the vaious parts for an AR and over time build a rifle with other COTEP.org members.

Should Bass agree to accept this mission, he will have to put together the details of the rifle. This would include Price (Hopefully no more than $700 to start with) various parts to be used, class schedule for meeting and a brief understanding of his goal for the rifle (i.e. solid base model that you could ultimately modify yourself overtime or in future classes.)

This class would encourage discussion but not arguing whether a part is MIM or not. In other words, a student agrees to listen and only the opinion of the professor goes. Now it may be he will provide alternative parts for those like Clyde who have more money then they can spend; but it is the goal to allow students to spend a minimum amout to get a decent rifle.

By the way, parts. I would think we should consider buying parts from the person running the class. In this case, Bass works at a gun store. Or maybe a list is made of the parts and we all spread-out to find the best deal. We all then could buy from the same source and maybe get a discount. Is there a good FFL in COTEP who isnt a wiz at making money!? :D


If you are interested in participating please post an "Im in" below or if your Clyde "Im mim" with a recent picture of your face with out anyone else in the photo!

If you would like to make some suggestions or ideas for this first class please make them. Hopefully this will workout and we can get started by mid June for the first parts

[Sheepdog]

I'm in! I own several AR's but don't know anything about building one. I know they are allot like 1911, a collection of parts.

[CalWhit33]

I'm in. How might this go down like a how to forum or are you thinking meet here on Wed 8/7c kind of thing?

[dumbell2]

I am in!

[NAMVET72]

Noel, aren't you the one that told me your wife won't let buy No More Guns until next year??????????

I Am In.

Clyde

[Thedragonslayer]

Im hoping we can have a chat-box that will allow some interaction with all the class members and mimber (if Clyde participates, LOL!) maybe at a predetermined time. This could be like at the most agreeable time, then those who miss could just pull up the chat-box and posts to hear what was discussed.

From a selfish standpoint, I would like to learn the what and why's of all the various parts, different manufacturers, and little tid-bits that will help me understand them more completely. The fun part would be taking our time and going one piece at a time and at the end a new rifle! The duration would depend on the interest and discussion depth.

This would be open discussion and not debate. Whoever the professor will be (man i hope somebody will step to the plate) will be the "expert" opinion. I have seen that AR Opinions are like the crucible of opinions and this could get bogged down quickly.

[Thedragonslayer]

Noel, aren't you the one that told me your wife won't let buy No More Guns until next year??????????

I Am In.

Clyde

Shhhhhh! She doesnt need to know everything Clyde!!!

Thanks Clyde!


ps Where's Knott???:mad:

[NAMVET72]

I think Dk is wearing the Apron today and doing Laundry and Dishes........


Clyde
BTW This is the First good thing you thought of since you asked your wife to marry you..............:):)

[Grizzman]

I'll guess I'll add that I'll be participating in this endeavor also.

Luckily in most cases, the principles behind the build process are identical no matter which manufacturer makes the components. All barrels are attached in the same manner. All lower parts kits (triggers, safeties, take down pins, etc) are installed the same, with exceptions for some aftermarket units.

It shouldn't be overly difficult to show the installation of both a carbine length 5 position buffer tube (with any mil-spec stock sliding onto it) and an A2 stock. The same should be true with a standard front sight post gas block in addition to a low profile gas block to be installed under free float hand guards.

Speaking of hand guards, this will likely be the most challenging aspect of the class. Except for standard hand guards, each design is installed differently. Directions are included with the hand guards, and they're all pretty easy to install....just different.

Grizz

[tubbs]

Im not in but will help if you guys need it. In my opinion ARs are pretty straight forward. I think the biggest thing will be getting "adequate" tools for people to use. If you get all of the proper tools to build one you are looking at $100 to start off. Trust me buy the best out there I bough cheap then bought again. I have some various tools that I would be willing to lend out like a lower block and stock wrench. My uncle has the upper block and barrel wrench.

I think the hardest part will be streaming video somehow. But a good set of detailed directions would help. I think it would also be beneficial to show some helpful tips like using vice grips to push certain roll pins in to avoid marring your finish, watch out for flying detents, and make sure the disconnector spring is installed right to avoid full auto things like that.

You surely dont have to have the right tools, hell I put my first lower together with vice grips, a screw driver, claw hammer, razor blade, and cutting board but having the right tools sure does help.

[titanse05]

I only have one AR that I bought complete and would be interested in building one from the ground up. However, before I'd commit I would be interested in knowing what parts would be used. I would hope that the end product would be a AR that is as durable as possible.

[bvkdphillips]

I'm in on this one too! Sounds like a great opportunity to learn something new!

[titanse05]

Any idea on parts to be used?

[Sheepdog]

Noel, aren't you the one that told me your wife won't let buy No More Guns until next year??????????

I Am In.

Clyde

He is not buying a gun he is buying parts.:p

[Bass Ackwardz]

I have told TDS that I would most certainly agree to do this, with either videos that I post and then discuss at agreed upon times, or do live streaming video. We'll have to figure it out.

Class will start with a stripped lower and lower parts kit. Then we will move to installing the buffer tube and a collapsible 6 position stock install. I dont want to move to quick, but also dont want to move at a snails pace.

So the first task will be to get those wanting to do this, the stripped lower, and a lower parts kit...

Bill

[BadOscar]

Sound good to me. Would it be posible to put up a parts list with a target price for each part? It doen't necessarily have to be on the money but just give us an idea of what we are looking at as a whole.

[Bass Ackwardz]

Yes, I'll do it tonight.

Bill

[Thedragonslayer]

He is not buying a gun he is buying parts.:p



Thanks Scott!!! I needed a good answer!!!:rock:

[Bass Ackwardz]

Ok, heres the list of parts need to build a complete lower and a complete upper. Listed are prices on the lower end of the cost spectrum. Can you use more expensive/less expensive parts? Of course. You can choose what ever parts you want or can afford. On the low end you should expect to spend from $700 to $1000, depending on a few part upgrades.

Heres the breakdown...

Stripped lower receiver $85
Lower parts kit $70
Collapsible buttstock assy. $100

Complete lower assy. $255

Now the upper I am going to price out will be just a standard M4 upper with handguards, no quad rail or anything fancy.

Upper assy. (includes dust cover assy. and forward assist assy.) $110
Bolt Carrier Group $90
Charging Handle $25
M4 barrel with front sight post, gas tube, barrel nut, A2 flash suppressor and delta ring assy. $280
Magpul MOE handguards $30
Magpul back up flip up rear sight $60

Complete upper assy. $595

Throw in a Magpul PMAG $15

Complete AR-15 rifle, ready to shoot $865

Now, you can find a few parts cheaper, but everything I have priced out, are parts I would use in my own personal builds. Some parts dont fit or perform as well, you just have to decide for yourself, if you want to save a few bucks, or spend a few more.

If anyone has any questions on where to find parts, or about certain parts, please post here, or PM me and I'll answer/discuss them.

I am looking forward to this, it should be fun...


Bill

[CalWhit33]

What specific tools and prices are needed that wouldn't be handy in a tool box

[Grizzman]

This may be an opportunity for fellow forum members to sell (or get rid of) some unwanted spare AR parts in the new classifieds section.

I've got some serviceable take-off parts that have been cluttering my parts drawer for too many years, and it's likely that numerous others here have a lot more.

Grizz

[Bass Ackwardz]

If you want to buy the tools to make an AR build easier, heres the rundown...

Upper vise block $49.95
Multi wrench tool $24.95
Roll pin punches $4.99-49.99

You can do it without those tools, but they make it easier. You will need a small hammer, set of pliers/channel locks, painters tape, some sort of punches, and a castle nut wrench. A vise can be a life saver, with or without the upper vise block.

Bill

[alazgr8]

I am in no way an expert on AR's, and I hope I don't come across as a know-it-all, but I built 4 AR's (and I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express once) last year with my four sons. I bought complete uppers, so my comments regard the lowers only.

If you look on AR15.com you can find pretty explicit directions, and photo's. It would be a good idea to read as much as possible, and familiarize yourself with the lower reciever parts kit, as some of the springs look pretty similar.

Of the things that can go wrong and is probably the worst thing that can happen during the build is appying too much force on the rear ears of the lower reciever where the trigger guard goes. When you are driving the pin in, you could actually break an ear off.

When driving in the bolt catch pin, if you aren't careful or don't use masking or duct tape to protect the finish you could scratch the lower reciever. Don't ask me how I know. "Nuff said.

If you aren't familiar with the springs or don't use a photo that shows the spring/name you could install a spring in the wrong location, then you will have to drive out the pin that most likely retains the spring to get the springs in the right locations.

To me the most important tools to own are are a small hammer and roll pin punch's. Everything else you can probably borrow.

I think this is a great thing Bass is doing and I will be interested in his lesson on building the upper reciever.

Regards,

Rick


If you want to buy the tools to make an AR build easier, heres the rundown...

Upper vise block $49.95
Multi wrench tool $24.95
Roll pin punches $4.99-49.99

You can do it without those tools, but they make it easier. You will need a small hammer, set of pliers/channel locks, painters tape, some sort of punches, and a castle nut wrench. A vise can be a life saver, with or without the upper vise block.

Bill

[titanse05]

Well considering that the last post was May of last year I don't think that this is going to happen.

[Big Smoke]

This thread seems to be a bit played out, but I'm hoping to revive it. :) I've always wanted an AR, but it was not at the top of my priority list, so I don't have one yet. However, since Maryland is banning the sale and import of AR's on 10/1, the necessity to build one rose to the top of my list. I just bought 2 Lower receivers which I have in my hand, and 2 parts kits, one of which I already installed. Pretty straight forward build, YouTube helps a lot.
But now I'm concentrating on gathering parts for the upper receiver and barrel assembly, and not sure exactly what I want, or how to do it. So many ways to build it, and so many different parts and manufacturers, it's a nightmare for a newbie to AR's.
I said I bought 2 lower receivers. I want one for short range rifle with a Red Dot sight, or EOT, or something, and the other I want for a long range rifle. If and when the SHTF, I want to be ready for whatever comes along.
Any takers in explaining, or helping me out, or anyone else with the same idea? :D

[Roverron]

There's about any option, caliber, length, etcetcetc. BARREL has to be 16.1" min or you get to apply for stamp. Here's a link: http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_3/4_Build_It_Yourself.html

You will probably have to sign up for membership but there's also most of the mfgr's on this site too.

Goo luck, uppers are only a little more diff to build than a lower. Probably takes longer to figure out/find what you want

[douglas_knott]

This thread seems to be a bit played out, but I'm hoping to revive it. :) I've always wanted an AR, but it was not at the top of my priority list, so I don't have one yet. However, since Maryland is banning the sale and import of AR's on 10/1, the necessity to build one rose to the top of my list. I just bought 2 Lower receivers which I have in my hand, and 2 parts kits, one of which I already installed. Pretty straight forward build, YouTube helps a lot.
But now I'm concentrating on gathering parts for the upper receiver and barrel assembly, and not sure exactly what I want, or how to do it. So many ways to build it, and so many different parts and manufacturers, it's a nightmare for a newbie to AR's.
I said I bought 2 lower receivers. I want one for short range rifle with a Red Dot sight, or EOT, or something, and the other I want for a long range rifle. If and when the SHTF, I want to be ready for whatever comes along.
Any takers in explaining, or helping me out, or anyone else with the same idea? :D

Check out psa. http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ you can get complete uppers if your wanting to. I have bought 3 or 4 from them. Plus they have a great deal on ten pmags and a lpk. I have two of my rifles topped with aimpoint comp m2's bought off ebay for decent prices.

[Deleted]

There's about any option, caliber, length, etcetcetc. BARREL has to be 16.1" min or you get to apply for stamp. Here's a link: http://www.ar15.com/forums/f_3/4_Build_It_Yourself.html

You will probably have to sign up for membership but there's also most of the mfgr's on this site too.

Goo luck, uppers are only a little more diff to build than a lower. Probably takes longer to figure out/find what you want


Ron, you can have a 14.5 inch barrel as long as the flash hider/comp is pinned to the barrel. That is what I have on mine.

[douglas_knott]

Ron, you can have a 14.5 inch barrel as long as the flash hider/comp is pinned to the barrel. That is what I have on mine.

Or a ten in with a six in flash hider. ;)

[Big Smoke]

Thanks for the info, guys. I just picked up my lower receivers, and while I save some money, I have time to decide how I want to build them. One will be for short range, and one for longer range. I''m just trying to do all my homework on what's available to help make my decision.

[Roverron]

Ron, you can have a 14.5 inch barrel as long as the flash hider/comp is pinned to the barrel. That is what I have on mine.

Yes I have one of those in 5.56/.223, but I also have a 10.5" & 14" not pinned barrels for SBR in 300 BLK and yes I have the stamp of approval from the BATF along with the lower engravings as required. I also have a suppressor for the 300 BLK with the stamp. The suppressor is removal, and not pinned.

[Deleted]

I'm looking into a SBR and Suppressor myself.


Going through a lawyer with a trust to skip the finger prints and other BS

[Roverron]

I'm looking into a SBR and Suppressor myself.


Going through a lawyer with a trust to skip the finger prints and other BS

Yep that's what I did also. Makes it easy to pass to another with it too.

[Deleted]

New addition to my semi finished AR build.

Phase 5 Tactical BAD Lever, It replaces the bolt release unlike the one's Magpul has out. Which tend to work loose after heavy use.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx22/springfield45/9e37b675-f726-4a0d-9362-f9b6b10f8150_zps1a72f695.jpg (http://s738.photobucket.com/user/springfield45/media/9e37b675-f726-4a0d-9362-f9b6b10f8150_zps1a72f695.jpg.html)

[Roverron]

Nice! I have Magpul and Troy BAD levers on a some of mine. But the phase 5 looks very nice

[RevM]

You can also run shorter barrels ... ~12" with mid-length gas, ~10 with carbine gas, or ~8 with pistol gas ... just by setting up a lower with a pistol buffer.

Here's my 12" Wilson Combat in 6.8SPC:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_20110325_132223.jpg

[TLE2]

If it was going to be a 308 build, I'd be interested. I've seen several online videos even one from Brownells. The shared experience might add something however.

I'm a qualified "in".

[Roverron]

Ive never considered a pistol but this was from a friend who had sent a letter to BATF:

This refers to your letter of xxxxxxxxxx, in which you inquire
about the legality of manufacturing a handgun which utilizes a rifle
type receiver.

26 U.S.C. Chapter 53 # 5845(a)(4), the National Firearms Act (NFA),
defines the term "firearm" to include a weapon made from a rifle if
such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches
or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

Utilizing the receiver of an existing rifle for the purposes of
manufacturing a handgun would constitute the making of a firearm as
defined above. Individuals desiring to make such a firearm must first
submit an ATF Form 1, Application To Make And Register a Firearm and
pay the applicable $200 making tax.

If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification
must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry. If we may
be of any further assistance, please contact us.

Sincerely your,
(signed)
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
-------------------------------------------
and there's this letter I've seen:
http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=26635
-------------------------------------------
So, from this Im assuming if the lower was registered originally as a Rifle, then Form 1 and $$$ is required to have it re-registered as a pistol lower. Does it require engraving on the lower to show as a pistol or ?? However, if you originally purchased the lower as a Pistol lower, then a Form 1 is Not required.

Is that correct? I might have to check into building one. cool looking pistol!

[RevM]

AR receivers are not recorded on forms 4473 as "rifles", they are simply "receivers".

You can build your receiver as a rifle or a pistol. Technically speaking, once it has been built into a rifle with a buttstock and upper attached it is only and forever a rifle unless you go the form 1 route to convert it to a pistol.

The exception is as your second ATF letter states ... if you buy a complete lower receiver with a buttstock attached you are allowed to remove the buttstock and replace it with a pistol buffer ... but once that complete lower is assembled with an upper it is forever a rifle (except form 1, yada, yada).