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View Full Version : Accuracy not Speed. <flame suit on>


Grouse
06-20-2013, 06:44 PM
Accuracy Always First, Speed Second
So, you all know I shoot a lot. It is my zen time. In the last 4-5 years i have seen a huge upswing in new shooters and shooting as a recreation, sport, and as a means of self defense. As a whole this is a very positive thing. We as a group have seen the right to carry grow, the invention of several new sports/competitions, along with the quality of the products available to us rise drastically. We really don’t here of the horrible firearms from the 60’s 70’s 80’s. Now we can go spend a couple of hundred and have a pistol go bang most of the time. While the quality of the guns, ammo, gear and sports have increased. Have we as a group of amateur shooters increased our skills?
Today at the range I saw multiple firearms owners, shooting. Pushing themselves to shoot faster, with this drill, that drill, off hand, one hand, behind simulated cover, or in the dark. One gentleman was so fast with his one hand push out 3 shot string, that he hit the center chest of the target first shot, the ceiling the second and my target two lanes to the left on the third. I see this craving for faster times; faster follow ups, quicker draws, slicker guns. I do not see a craving for accuracy. As I watched the gentleman above, I saw none of the 9 shooters in the lanes able to hit a sub 2” group at 25ft. I saw people struggling with grips, sight picture, feet, stance and trigger control.

When did we loose the Annie Oakley, the Elmer Kieth, in us? When did we as shooters forget that we have to hit the target for it be effective? I have tried to help those that seemed interested, only to see them fall back on Hollywood hijinks as proof positive of how we are to shoot. Some of our most notable shooters were accurate shots; and some were accurate and fast shots. I think Wyatt Earp said it best. “Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything”. Folks like Annie Oakley, Sgt York, Audie Murphy, Carlos Hathcock, Elmer Kieth, Ed Mcgivern, Col. Applegate. As much as a google search will do, I find no famous fast inaccurate shots.
We read the caliber wars, the bullet discussions, +p or standard pressure. Then we see the one or two voices that point out shot placement. Yet, shot placement is nothing more than accuracy, or accuracy repeated. Being able to make repeated shots into very small groups shows that you have mastered your own stance, breathing, grip, trigger control and muscle memory. I make the case that being accurate is not slow. It is being deliberate, and that builds all the skills needed for being fast in our modern shooting sports, and hobbies. By being deliberate in our movements, our weight distribution, our grip, our eye focus, our breathing and our trigger control we build that much needed muscle memory. It is that memory that allows us to move smoothly and confidently when shooting at a faster pace.

What things can we work on to shoot more accurately as a group? Make our targets smaller, instead of hitting 6” center mass on a 12x 18 target. Focus on a 1” target dot on plain paper. Find your stance, understand your weight distribution. Be able to grip the firearm consistently every time. If you are re-gripping the gun after every shot, or every few shots you will not be consistent. Raise and lower the gun so that the sight alignment is consistent every time. Know when to breathe and when to hold that breath. Work that bugger hooker of a trigger finger. Be-able to dry fire a double action pistol or revolver with an empty 22lr case on the barrel 25-30 times before it falls off. These are all things that can be practiced and worked on outside the range.

When in the range we can work on certain steps before we get into our specific sport or hobby training. We can work on our live fire, stance, grip, breathing, sight picture and trigger pull. In that order. Set your stance, establish your grip, breathe, aligning the sights, pull the trigger. S.G.B.SA.T

I start my sessions with a brick of 22lr. I do 10 rounds out of my smith and Wesson 617 double action at the 1” dot. Then 10 rounds out of my 1911 with marvel unit 2 at the one inch dot. I repeat that for 500 rounds. I reaffirm the entire above items before moving on to center fire. It allows me to be consistent in S,G,B,SA,T. When I am not, the individual things I messed up on become very apparent. My biggest issue is consistent trigger control. That is why I practice with the 22lr pistols for so long.

When I move to center fire pistols, I use the same one inch dots. If I am feeling ballsy I work with the dime sized dots. I try and shoot out the 1” dots with 5 shots at 30’. I typically focus on that for around 300-400 rounds per caliber. Increasing or decreasing ranges as needed. I start my center fire practice with the smallest caliber that has the least recoil. Some times that is .38spl, or 9mm. Then move up through the guns with the most felt recoil.
When I have practiced my one inch dots and I am nearing the end of my range sessions. I will put up a silhouette target. I will work on my center mass shots. I load two to five rounds into the magazine. I put my target at 21-35ft depending how I have shot that day. I start my S.G.B.SA.T , I do it deliberately and with purpose. I do not try and force speed. I draw or mock draw if the range does not allow drawing from the holster. Aim fire, fire and reset. After my run through with the guns, I take advantage of my ranges hogan’s alley program. I have it set to turn the target on edge for 3 seconds, then face me for 1, then edge ect. I do that for 10 cycles. I focus on putting my shots accurately on a 1.5” sticky target using the 2 shot strings. Sometimes I do well and keep them all in the 1.5”, sometimes not.
For me, it comes down to being able to hit the target consistently, every time, and all the time. I work on accuracy, not speed. My soap box rant is over.

Riverpigusmc
06-20-2013, 08:19 PM
You can shoot as fast as you want...it's the first ACCURATE shot that counts. Everything else is just smoke, noise and wasted effort. I waited MINUTES on the M40 to make sure the shot would be effective.

Grouse
06-20-2013, 08:24 PM
I should have clarified i was speaking specifically about civilian sports.

Riverpigusmc
06-20-2013, 08:32 PM
Same difference. You are practicing for reasons of accurate fire, whether for sport or in the event you need self defense. If you don't hit your target, it's wasted effert

Grouse
06-20-2013, 08:38 PM
Same difference. You are practicing for reasons of accurate fire, whether for sport or in the event you need self defense. If you don't hit your target, it's wasted effert

It is. Hitting a silhouette target in a 6 shot 12 inch group is not nearly as effective as being able to hit the silhouette target in a 6 shot 2" group.

Deliberate accurate fire is the most effective way to practice.

Sheepdog
06-20-2013, 10:39 PM
I think training is everything. I don't know that I would agree that 6 shots in a 2 inch group is more effective than six shots in a 12 inch group, if all shots are to center mass. I do agree that being able to put 6 shots in a 2" group would probably benefit you in a real life situation. I would be pleased to have 6 shots in the bad guy, in a real life situation. My other thought is that you do need to be fast enough not to be dead. IMHO

Grouse
06-20-2013, 10:54 PM
Again i am talking about 1-2" groups, versus the practice shooting at large silhouette and calling a 20" diameter group accurate.

I do not know if that would be more effective in a civilians life and death situation.

I do know that being accurate allows me to be faster with more accuracy. I can be stupidly fast blam blam blam just like every one else. More over I can do it with much better accuracy than most of the tactical practicals out there.


I am not sure that civilian defense situations require speed over accuracy.

I do not think everyone has the capability to be an operator, a competitor, o fast gun, but i do believe that most people can be accurate to one inch at 30 ft.

Being able to pic a target at close confrontation distances and hit that accurately and consistently will server you better than being fast and missing or wounding your target.

Grouse
06-20-2013, 11:00 PM
another guy posted this link.

http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/06/18/dot-torture-test-your-fundamentals/

Sheepdog
06-21-2013, 11:56 AM
At Gunsite, they promoted being fast enough to be accurate. I think it is very important to "work on something" don't just go burn three hundred rounds without thought of getting better at doing something. I have a coach/friend that works with me on the Kinesiology of shooting and other things. I shoot outside and like to run and gun that takes away from some of my accuracy. I too shoot at 1" dots and try to shoot them out. Training and practice, muscle memory, stance, GRIP, draw, trigger control...... are of more importance then what the timer says. My goal is to do the same thing every time. I also take a video camera with me, so I can see how my form needs work (much). I also use a timer because it helps me to see if I'm getting better compared to accuracy. I am constantly amazed at the number of CCL have never drawn from a holster! I went to Gunsite thinking I would be with the best shooters in the class. LOL I had no idea how deficient I was. I feel everybody needs some instruction! Most people don't know how deficient they are. My soapbox.

Grouse
06-21-2013, 02:32 PM
stop learning, start dying

Deleted
06-21-2013, 08:04 PM
Slow is smooth, Smooth is fast.

Sheepdog
06-21-2013, 08:51 PM
stop learning, start dying

"I'm your Huckleberry"

zukinut
06-21-2013, 09:07 PM
I'm not operator, or any of the such. My pistol is what it is meant to do a short distance firearm to get to something bigger (rifle/shotgun). I do not care of I am hitting 2in groups at 25 feet. Most real pistol gun fights happen at less then 3-5 yards.

I do not bullseye shoot. I shoot with thought I need to moving and shooting. Standing there like a sitting duck while drawing my pistol will be the death of me. ( Makes a great target). I move, draw and fire. First part is moving nothing less. Yes I practice this. I don't aim at targets, I point at them. Yes aimed shots are a good thing when you need them. But I only use that time to practice after I have practiced moving and shooting. As in not 90 to the right of a right handed shooter and visa versa. Any direction that makes the other shooter have to do something. I am not real happy with my 5 inch groups at 4-7 yards, but in the situation I will come across thats pretty good.

Yes I have taking classes to make my shootng better. I'm not the sit at the range and blow holes in a target in the A/C and say look at this I can hit the Bullseye with in a 1inch a 25 yards......

Riverpigusmc
06-22-2013, 08:54 AM
Again i am talking about 1-2" groups, versus the practice shooting at large silhouette and calling a 20" diameter group accurate.

I do not know if that would be more effective in a civilians life and death situation.

I do know that being accurate allows me to be faster with more accuracy. I can be stupidly fast blam blam blam just like every one else. More over I can do it with much better accuracy than most of the tactical practicals out there.


I am not sure that civilian defense situations require speed over accuracy.

I do not think everyone has the capability to be an operator, a competitor, o fast gun, but i do believe that most people can be accurate to one inch at 30 ft.

Being able to pic a target at close confrontation distances and hit that accurately and consistently will server you better than being fast and missing or wounding your target.

That's what I was saying...it's the fastest ACCURATE shots that count...not seeing how fast you can get shots off. However, the first person to hit the other person center mass usually comes out ahead

ColMike
06-22-2013, 09:56 AM
That's what I was saying...it's the fastest ACCURATE shots that count...not seeing how fast you can get shots off. However, the first person to hit the other person center mass usually comes out ahead

I believe a "B" plan fast is better than an "A" plan slow.

Also, I believe I spend too much of my training time pulling the trigger and not enough getting to the point where I will pull the trigger with my 1911s. OTOH for CAS, I spend a LOT of time getting the weapon to the point of pulling the trigger.

Grouse
06-22-2013, 10:09 AM
I am somewhat guilty of this also. I do not do a whole lot of draw from the holster as most ranges around here discourage it. Since we have moved here i have not even done a lot of unloaded weapon draw from the holster. I should start a regimen again.

Riverpigusmc
06-22-2013, 11:43 AM
We have a steel range at my club for RO's only that we draw from holster, shoot and scoot, rapid fire from 25 yards down to 10 yards

Sheepdog
06-22-2013, 02:02 PM
The only time we shoot indoors to avoid rain. Not many indoor range in Texas.

Snipersnest
06-26-2013, 04:43 PM
Accuracy is consistancy, consistancy is accuracy.

ColMike
06-26-2013, 05:57 PM
Accuracy is consistancy, consistancy is accuracy.

what if you are consistently inaccurate?

Grouse
06-26-2013, 06:02 PM
what if you are consistently inaccurate?

then you are named Clyde:D

Dave Waits
06-27-2013, 09:13 AM
First of all, what destroyed accuracy in shooting was the advent of High-Capacity magazines. Think about it, in WWII the average was one hit for every 12 rounds fired, in Korea it was one hit for every 20 rounds fired( Higher but, still a good ratio). In Vietnam it was one hit for every 120 thousand rounds fired. These stats are based on rounds fired versus body-counts for ground-warfare.

When people can throw more rounds faster, they don't worry about hitting as much as putting out fire in the general direction of the target. We had a police incident some years back in which a 'Domestic-Terrorist' and a State Trooper went at it at a distance of about fifteen feet. Between the two over twenty-three rounds were fired in less than ten seconds with zero hits. They did succeed in scaring the hell out of each other but, that was about it.

When I took the 250 we were having discussion one afternoon about the advantages of different Semi-Autos. One of my classmates brought up the high capacity of the Browning Hi-Power as an advantage. El Jefe looked at him for a second and said," If you cannot resolve a situation with seven rounds what, on Gods' Green-Earth makes you assume you will with fourteen?"

I'll take quickness, movement and accuracy over speed and a high-rate of fire anyday. Thinking back, the ambushes that were the most efficient were ones involving quick, aimed, Semi-Auto fire, not a bunch of guys trying to see who could empty their magazine first.

BTW, when engaging a right-handed shooter, always move to your left, it causes them to make more movement to shoot, increasing their chances of a miss.

Snipersnest
06-27-2013, 12:41 PM
In Vietnam it was one hit for every 120 thousand rounds fired. These stats are based on rounds fired versus body-counts for ground-warfare.

Charlie used to drag off their dead and wounded to counter the body count program we had. If you stick with the basic tenets of shooting, building muscle memory, accuracy and speed come naturally.

Originally Posted by Snipersnest
Accuracy is consistancy, consistancy is accuracy. That was a direct quote from our instructor in counter-sniper school.

Dave Waits
06-27-2013, 02:23 PM
Well yes, consistancy is the pure basis of accuracy,both with the gun and the shooter. If the weapon does everything the same and the shooter also, theoritic
ly every shot will land in the same spot. However, neither is perfect.

Speed is gained through repetition and body strength. The basic idea is that as you gain experience through repetition and build the muscle in your arms and shoulders to combat recoil you will gain speed along with accuracy.

Snipersnest
06-27-2013, 03:09 PM
Exactly!

DrHenley
06-28-2013, 11:36 PM
"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything."
- Wyatt Earp

TLE2
06-30-2013, 09:36 PM
Didn't Wyatt Erp say that fast shooters usually lie dead in the street from an accurate shot? Or something like that.

If you can be fast an accurate, be fast.