DW CCO: nosedives

[masakari]

I have a Dan Wesson CCO with Wilson Combat bulletproof slide release. I use Wilson 47OXCB 7 round magazines. The pistol has been through around 800 rounds over the course of a year, a mix of FMJ and defensive. My defensive round of choice for this pistol is currently Hornady XTP 200 grain.
When loading or reloading, I insert the magazine and hit the slide release.
My issue is this: just recently over the past month, I have started to receive nosedives in which the first round in the magazine pushes downward slightly during its forward movement, and hangs up on the feedramp base, with the bullet pushed in.
What could cause this? How come it is just now becoming an issue for me?
Thanks for any help you can provide.

[Xbonz]

Have you checked the spring, the follower, and or cleaned the mag?

[masakari]

Have you checked the spring, the follower, and or cleaned the mag?

yes. not only have I done that, but it does this with all of my mags, which are all the 47OXCBs.

[Xbonz]

It can sometimes be attributed to limp wristing. Let somebody else run the pistol w/ the same ammo and mags and see if the problem occurs. If so, try changing the springs in the mags.

[Grouse]

factory or reloads?

How old are the mags?

How many rounds through them?

Does it noes dive when you release the slide using your hand not the slide release?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/images/thumb/a/a9/Masakari.jpg/191px-Masakari.jpg

[masakari]

It can sometimes be attributed to limp wristing. Let somebody else run the pistol w/ the same ammo and mags and see if the problem occurs. If so, try changing the springs in the mags.

it only happens while loading, not while shooting, so thats a non-issue.

[masakari]

factory or reloads?

How old are the mags?

How many rounds through them?

Does it noes dive when you release the slide using your hand not the slide release?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/images/thumb/a/a9/Masakari.jpg/191px-Masakari.jpg

factory ammo
the mags are as old as the pistol, and are always loaded. they are only used in this pistol.
it only nosedives (so far) when using the slide release.
if the springs in these mags are already worn out, then maybe I should switch mags!
and I see you understand my name haha

[Grouse]

What is happening then is the slide release is letting the slide go to slow. Some how the slide release is binding against something as you use it. Typically slide releases cause wear on the slide. Many people avoid this by releasing the slide with your hand not the release. There will be those that shout "You should be releasing the slide with your hand not the slide release." Put the original back in and see if it still binds. Are there any other swapped out parts?

[masakari]

That is the only swapped out part, and unfortunately like an idiot i dont have the original. damn.
anyone have a source for one?

and I just checked the pistol, and there are copper marks on the frame right below the barrel where the rounds are hitting. so they are definitely nosediving pretty low.

[Grouse]

Rack the gun by releasing the slide with your hands and see if you have a failure.

What are you using for lube? How often are you cleaning? when was the last time it was lubed or cleaned?

[Grouse]

and I just checked the pistol, and there are copper marks on the frame right below the barrel where the rounds are hitting. so they are definitely nosediving pretty low.

Typically on a 45 that is where it should be starting to ramp up into the barrel.

[masakari]

Rack the gun by releasing the slide with your hands and see if you have a failure.

What are you using for lube? How often are you cleaning? when was the last time it was lubed or cleaned?

again, so far its only when I hit the slide release. but thats how I want to continue to reload, so I want to fix the problem instead of avoiding it. I have been kicking myself for swapping out the slide release for a while now, and that could be it. I wish DW would send me a new one... haha
but it is well lubed and cleaned now. always is.

[Grouse]

I would then find out where it is binding and clean it up a little.

email kieth at dan wesson or call them for a replacement.

[Riverpigusmc]

Springs wear from being cycled during use, not from compression from being loaded. Is this the only type ammo cauisng the failure? Are you using a shock buff? I'm with Aaron, sounds like the slide is moving too slow...how old and what weight is the recoil spring? That's where I'd look first...once your slide stop releases the slide, it's job is done unless it's binding

ETA: just saw you rpleaced the slide stop...unless you're lucky they seldom just drop in and need fitting...I'd check for binding like Aaron said, and check the recoil spring, as it can also cause a slow moving slide

[masakari]

I would then find out where it is binding and clean it up a little.

email kieth at dan wesson or call them for a replacement.

I honestly wouldn't know how to check for binding. Nothing is glaring at me, but it looks and feels normal.
whats Keith's email? I sent a message to [email protected] earlier, is that a good contact email? what about the phone number, is it 607-336-1174?
Thanks again for all of the help

[masakari]

Springs wear from being cycled during use, not from compression from being loaded. Is this the only type ammo cauisng the failure? Are you using a shock buff? I'm with Aaron, sounds like the slide is moving too slow...how old and what weight is the recoil spring? That's where I'd look first...once your slide stop releases the slide, it's job is done unless it's binding

exactly, thats why I dont think its the mags.
This is the only ammo that I have encountered failing thus far
Definitely not using a Shok Buff
The spring is as old as the pistol, 1 year and 800 rounds or so.
And I can agree, but I wouldnt know how to check for binding and such

note: while I agree that I should have never swapped the slide release, It has been in this pistol for pretty much all of the rounds shot through it, so being that the problem just started now, i'm still not completely convinced. I really hope that DW will send another though

[Riverpigusmc]

Wilson mags tend to "launch" the round into the chamber, not relying on the feedramp so much....the only two things I can suggest are

Try a new recoil spring just to try it

Use a Sharpie on the edge of your slide stop to see if something rubs it off.

If all else fails (and it may).....PM Dave Waits

[masakari]

Wilson mags tend to "launch" the round into the chamber, not relying on the feedramp so much....the only two things I can suggest are

Try a new recoil spring just to try it

Use a Sharpie on the edge of your slide stop to see if something rubs it off.

If all else fails (and it may).....PM Dave Waits

im looking at the slide release now, and there are some wear points but I don't know exactly how to describe them.

[Riverpigusmc]

Color it up with a Sharpie, release the slide a few times and see where the ink rubs off. If it does, that will give you an idea where to start looking. I'd buy a spare recoil spring and try it anyway..always a good thing to have on hand regardless

[Grouse]

dissasemble the pistol and post up pics of the frame, frame rails, barrel link hinge pin, slide release holes, slide rails and slide release lever. Top bottom and sides of all the things listed.

Is this a full stainless gun?

at 800 rounds i would be surprised if you have a week spring. Many of my DW have over 5k with no problems on the recoil spring.


What specifically are you using for lube?

Where are you using it?

How much are you using?

[masakari]

dissasemble the pistol and post up pics of the frame, frame rails, barrel link hinge pin, slide release holes, slide rails and slide release lever. Top bottom and sides of all the things listed.

Is this a full stainless gun?

at 800 rounds i would be surprised if you have a week spring. Many of my DW have over 5k with no problems on the recoil spring.


What specifically are you using for lube?

Where are you using it?

How much are you using?

I'll take pics as soon as I can. but to answer the questions I use CLP for lube, and I carry daily. I havent shot it much lately as I am away for work and it is my carry gun here, but I occasionally have to unload and reload, and that is when I am having these issues. I have already had to throw away 6 rounds that have been ruined here, and i only have 3 left in addition to my filled mags. kind of a weird situation, I know haha.

[Riverpigusmc]

IMHO, CLP is a great cleaner, lousy lube. If it slides, grease it, if it rotates, oil it. YMMV

[Dave Waits]

Couple questions;
1.) When you insert a mag does it have any up and down movement after seating?
2.) Can you take a photo of the Lobe and cutouts of the offending Slide-Stop? Although I doubt the Slide-Stop is the problem, it should be checked for wear.

Usually, nosedives are a result of the the breechblock catching too high on the rim or the round not being at the right angle for feed. Since you state it does this with all mags, I also doubt it's the followers. Further, if it's hitting the rim correctly, a weak spring may stop the feed but the round would be partially chambered. I don't remember seeing it but, does it do this with the original magazines?

I think you need to have the magazine-catch looked at. Sounds like it isn't holding the magazines high enough anymore.

The marks on your ramp are normal, big misconception here is that the rounds slide nose-first up the ramp. They don't. They bounce upward off the ramp and into the hood of the chamber. The ramp actually kicks the nose upwards, the nose hits the Hood, slides along the hood, straightening out and sliding up under the Extractor and forward into the chamber. This is all done very fast and with a lot of violence. This is why rounds repeatedly chambered in Carryguns suffer setback.

Also, it is not a Slide-Release, it's a Slide-Stop. the original prints and Field Manuals bear this out. The part is designed to stop the slide from coming forward after the last round is fired and the follower pushes it up into the slide-notch. The user then removes the magazine,pulls back slightly on the slide and depresses the slide-Stop, and then guides the slide forward. Thus saving from allowing the slide to slam home without a round being stripped off to slow it down damaging the pistol. Using the Slide-Stop to release the slide causes premature wear to the Stop and the slide and further, doesn't strip a round and load as effectively.

[Sheepdog]

Thanks Dave. Great info.

[masakari]

That is great info, and I appreciate your post.
That said, I have had correspondence with Keith at DW and at this point, I don't think anything is wrong with my gun. I think that the way in which I reload (I'm on the slide release as I slam the mag home), coupled with oldish mag springs (not worn out by any means, but not brand new either), and a very wide style of hollow points just gave me that string of bad luck.
My option is to be slower on the slide release, or simply sling shot the slide.
However, I have been contemplating selling this beauty for a while now, simply because its worth so much, and I could use cash. I could "replace" it with an M&P Shield and use the extra cash to pay bills. I am not decided on it, but it is an option. We will see.
Thanks for all of the help.