Counterbalance

[Dave Waits]

Due to the regrettable rash of 'Poodle-Shooter' purchases lately on the forum, I felt it encumbant on me to return balance to the force by the purchase of a real gun.
So, it's a Mossberg Model 500 Tactical Persuader in 12 gauge. Sporting a 20" barrel, Cylinder-Bore and an eight-shot capacity. Purchased along with it was a 25 round box of Remington 2-3/4" 00 Buckshot loads.

So, without further ado, balance is reattained and the Force is calm.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii180/retmsgt123/P5040001_zps20c6864a.jpg (http://s264.photobucket.com/user/retmsgt123/media/P5040001_zps20c6864a.jpg.html)

[BlackKnight]

Sweet!

[Riverpigusmc]

Nice scattergun

[Caleb]

It's missing the tactical flashlight, pistol grip, folding stock, and red dot.

Other yhan that, very nice!

:p

[AutoMag]

Very nice shotgun Dave!!!:)

[GD2A]

Nice. I have a Remington 870 and might pick up a second shotty one of these days. Some problems are best solved with a full ounce of lead :D

[milkmanjoe]

Nice, Dave.....we roll with 500's too....family favorite shottie.

[Dave Waits]

It's missing the tactical flashlight, pistol grip, folding stock, and red dot.

Other yhan that, very nice!

:p

1.) Tactical Flashlight- Four different serious studies, one by LFI, have shown that in a low-light or no light situation, over 90% of people tested, including trained LEOs and Military personnel, instinctively fire directly at a sudden light-source. Burning question; Who is directly behind that sudden light-source?

2.) Pistol-Grip- While muy Mas Macho, a Pistol-Grip is the most useless thing one can put on a serious Shotgun, especially a pump. Reasons; A.) You can't aim a shotgun with a Pistol-Grip, not without eating the rear of the receiver. B.) When you rack the slide of a Pistol-Gripped shotgun, the Pistol-Grip automatically twists in your hand, pulling the shotgun off target. This is what's known in some circles as Tactically-Bad Ju-Ju. C.) Unless you hold the shotgun straight out in front of you at eye-level when you fire, your trigger-hand wrist will be useless within two shots from the recoil. Remember, a 2-3/4" highbase, non-magnum 12 gauge shell produces the same amount of recoil(36.3ftlbs.) as a bolt-action 30-06.

3.) Folding Stock- The Haute-Couture of tacticool Mall ninjas! A Folding Stock is flimsy. Flimsy equates to unstable. Unstable translates to poor aiming platform. I'll be the first to admit that Folding Stocks on shotguns look mean and neat but, there's no way to cheeck-weld to them, when you rack the slide shouldered you can feel them flexing and that distracts. Also, the tactics of using a shotgun as an offensive weapon preclude the folding Stock as a butt stroke is impossible with one.

4.) Red Dot- while they have some usefullness, red dots are no better than a good visible Bead. Their application is best for shotguns that exclusively use slugs.

I'm not picking Cale, this is all stuff I learned in a Tactical Shotgun Course. The best way to run a Shotgun is on the K.I.S.S. principle, Keep It Simple Stupid!

[Sheepdog]

I've never AIMED a shotgun.:D Nice shottie Dave.

[AutoMag]

Here is my Keep It Simple Shotgun!!!

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p250/AutoMag180/20120604_1.jpg (http://s130.photobucket.com/user/AutoMag180/media/20120604_1.jpg.html)

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p250/AutoMag180/20120604_2.jpg (http://s130.photobucket.com/user/AutoMag180/media/20120604_2.jpg.html)

[sdmc530]

nice shotguns....they are such great guns and under rated for home defense!! Nice job guys!

[BlackKnight]

nice shotguns....they are such great guns and under rated for home defense!! Nice job guys!
In my opinion they're under rated and under appreciated for police work as well.

[Caleb]

I'm not picking Cale, this is all stuff I learned in a Tactical Shotgun Course. The best way to run a Shotgun is on the K.I.S.S. principle, Keep It Simple Stupid!

I totally agree with you Dave, I was just being an Ellison. Well said, tho.

[sdmc530]

In my opinion they're under rated and under appreciated for police work as well.

NO DOUBT!! Yeah, the black gun is taking over but the shotgun is a better tool. When a "bad guy" hears the racking of a shell in a shotgun its game over.....way under appreiated!!

[TLE2]

I understand that Clint Smith says that a pistol is what you use to fight you're way back to the rifle you shouldn't have left. Wonder if that applies to shottys?

[milkmanjoe]

NO DOUBT!! Yeah, the black gun is taking over but the shotgun is a better tool. When a "bad guy" hears the racking of a shell in a shotgun its game over.....way under appreiated!!

Actually a bad guy probably wouldn't know the difference in sound from a shottie racking to a lamp falling over. The old "rack the shotgun scares them away" myth is just that, a myth. Gun should be chambered anyway, if ya wanna scare a bad guy shoot at him. That MIGHT work, many thugs have no regard for human life, even their own. In that case, take a lesson from pig, shoot them till you ain't scared no more.

I understand that Clint Smith says that a pistol is what you use to fight you're way back to the rifle you shouldn't have left. Wonder if that applies to shottys?

I would say that in personal(non-military) self(home) defense, any long gun.
Pistol rounds are actually piss poor for putting people down.

[milkmanjoe]

We use this one for HD, adjustable stock for my youngest son. Door breacher points have been filed sharp. Loads are rifled slugs and OO Buck, handloaded hot.

http://www.cotep.org/forum/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=749

[Dave Waits]

I understand that Clint Smith says that a pistol is what you use to fight you're way back to the rifle you shouldn't have left. Wonder if that applies to shottys?

TLE2, that was first uttered by Col. Jeff Cooper.

[BlackKnight]

Actually a bad guy probably wouldn't know the difference in sound from a shottie racking to a lamp falling over. The old "rack the shotgun scares them away" myth is just that, a myth.
I'm sorry, sir, but I'm going to wholehearted disagree. I know from first hand experience that it does work.
When I was assigned to this particular task force we were designated to hit certain "hot spots". So one of the strategies I came up with was to bring the shotgun. I had it fully loaded with one in the breach, but open. As soon as I got out of the car I closed it. Trust me when I tell you they knew the sound and I've preempted a lot of pursuits that way. What they didn't know was that I couldn't shoot them if they ran. We also preempted a lot of them from going to their guns in their waist and took a lot of illegal guns of the street. Thank God!
I also got the unofficial nickname of "Officer Shotty" for a short period. :D

[jmlutz]

Here's mine, it's an 870 clone, I just love it.

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a408/jmlutz/002_zps9d849bf6.jpg

[milkmanjoe]

I'm sorry, sir, but I'm going to wholehearted disagree. I know from first hand experience that it does work.
When I was assigned to this particular task force we were designated to hit certain "hot spots". So one of the strategies I came up with was to bring the shotgun. I had it fully loaded with one in the breach, but open. As soon as I got out of the car I closed it. Trust me when I tell you they knew the sound and I've preempted a lot of pursuits that way. What they didn't know was that I couldn't shoot them if they ran. We also preempted a lot of them from going to their guns in their waist and took a lot of illegal guns of the street. Thank God!
I also got the unofficial nickname of "Officer Shotty" for a short period. :D

It may have worked for you, there is no math to make me trust it. If there was that would be all you need, rack a shottie and the BG's give up or run. Thugs, as you know, tend to carry pistols and have little to no knowledge of shotguns. Out in the country of SC a shotgun is laughed at as a bird gun, mini 14's are behind car seats. Rack a shottie to scare someone and take a 30 round mag incoming. And they are not afraid. And they alter their guns( some with AK's) to full auto. You have the same in Camden, New Jersey. Rack one there and see the results. Hell, a home intruder can have hearing like mine, wouldn't even hear the gun racking. Or his heart pounding so hard he couldn't hear the gun racking. I don't try to stay alive by making scary sounds a BG might not even interpret. I stick with, if you want to scare a BG, shoot at them. Even then, their dis-respect for life, they might not care. I have been shot, I put my faith in bullets, not noises. That's just my world.

[BlackKnight]

I'm not condoning putting trust only in noises. It's like physical tactics. Certain things are going to work mostly on compliant and semi-compliant people. I knew going in that was the case where the racking worked. It's a strategy I managed to successfully use. But I was also prepared to use deadly force if necessary. I was dependent on that tactic alone.
But, to say something is never going to work well that's one dimensional thinking in my opinion. My issue is I don't believe in absolutes, not when it comes to self defense or what I call active tactics. What may work for one situation may not work for another.
Btw, while no one can deny Camden is a hell hole, I was raised in and continue to work in the 3rd most populated city in the State, Paterson. Camden just happens to get the better press.
Anyway, sorry for the thread drift.

[milkmanjoe]

I'm not condoning putting trust only in noises. It's like physical tactics. Certain things are going to work mostly on compliant and semi-compliant people. I knew going in that was the case where the racking worked. It's a strategy I managed to successfully use. But I was also prepared to use deadly force if necessary. I was dependent on that tactic alone.
But, to say something is never going to work well that's one dimensional thinking in my opinion. My issue is I don't believe in absolutes, not when it comes to self defense or what I call active tactics. What may work for one situation may not work for another.
Btw, while no one can deny Camden is a hell hole, I was raised in and continue to work in the 3rd most populated city in the State, Paterson. Camden just happens to get the better press.
Anyway, sorry for the thread drift.

I think it is a good drift, Dave went the way of the shottie and we are staying on the shottie. You also have the "benefit", of LE vehicles, uniforms, maybe even vocal LEO's with you. I use "benefit" loosely yet carefully, harm's way is harm's way. But average people basically self urinate when they see the cherries on a LEO vehicle, or hear the authoritave voice of an experienced LEO. The racking of a shottie could be anyone slamming a car door, LEO's have visuals that speak volumes. Let's try a home invasion, no LEO's involved. Would your experience say that racking a shottie is going to spook (probably multiples) in a residential home invasion? I am not being argumantative, this is a need for experienced knowledge.

[BlackKnight]

I think it is a good drift, Dave went the way of the shottie and we are staying on the shottie. You also have the "benefit", of LE vehicles, uniforms, maybe even vocal LEO's with you. I use "benefit" loosely yet carefully, harm's way is harm's way. But average people basically self urinate when they see the cherries on a LEO vehicle, or hear the authoritave voice of an experienced LEO. The racking of a shottie could be anyone slamming a car door, LEO's have visuals that speak volumes. Let's try a home invasion, no LEO's involved. Would your experience say that racking a shottie is going to spook (probably multiples) in a residential home invasion? I am not being argumantative, this is a need for experienced knowledge.
First of let me address the part I highlighted. You're not being argumentative at all and I'm sorry if I come across that way. Not my intention. I just now purposely switched to my lap top (as opposed to my Ipad) to make sure I typed correctly. This is one of those conversation we would enjoy having with our favorites drinks (milk for you and whiskey for me ;) ) and a cigar.
Anyway, if I would were to use a shotgun for defense in a home invasion there would be no "warning." There would be some lead going on target.
Again, that supports my argument (discussion) in that different scenarios call for different tactics.
And to support your argument (discussion) I know all the visual and auditory cues are not always going to work out in the street as well, especially if I'm dealing with an EDP or someone high on something. Then, my tactics will have to change.
Not everything works for everything, but not all tactics are useless either.

EDIT: Let me add that I love these type of discussions. I'm dealing here with adults of varying experience. Trust me when I tell you guys I learn a lot from you guys. You should see some of the other forums I used to visit. I gave up trying to deal with them.

EDIT #2: I also forgot to mention my home shotgun is a Benelli M1 Super 90. So racking the slide is a moot point. :D

[TLE2]

Racking the slide may not stop an intrusion, but it accomplishes one thing: loads a round in the chamber.

[Dave Waits]

Gentlemen, as for racking the slide. I don't. I want what I have for somebody breaking into my home to their last total surprise. We have a good 'Castle-Law' in Ohio, I don't even have to see a gun. I also have training in the offensive 'Non-Lethal' use of the shotgun should I be so predisposed.

This is not, by any means, my first dance with a shotgun.

[AutoMag]

Man........I thought I was on the 1911 forum after reading this thread!!!!!!!:D:rolleyes:

[Caleb]

Man........I thought I was on the 1911 forum after reading this thread!!!!!!!:D:rolleyes:

No, because then someone would of said the 500's have mim parts and that's why you should not rack the slide. :D

[AutoMag]

Now that is s good one Caleb.:)

Or they would have compared it to a Ferrari and a Volkswagen!!!!:D:D

[Caleb]

Now that is s good one Caleb.:)

Or they would have compared it to a Ferrari and a Volkswagen!!!!:D:D

True. :rolleyes:

[aloreman]

For home defense we have an old stevens side by side sawed off to 18.5 inches and loaded with #4 buck. should stop any bad people

[milkmanjoe]

First of let me address the part I highlighted. You're not being argumentative at all and I'm sorry if I come across that way. Not my intention. I just now purposely switched to my lap top (as opposed to my Ipad) to make sure I typed correctly. This is one of those conversation we would enjoy having with our favorites drinks (milk for you and whiskey for me ;) ) and a cigar.
Anyway, if I would were to use a shotgun for defense in a home invasion there would be no "warning." There would be some lead going on target.
Again, that supports my argument (discussion) in that different scenarios call for different tactics.
And to support your argument (discussion) I know all the visual and auditory cues are not always going to work out in the street as well, especially if I'm dealing with an EDP or someone high on something. Then, my tactics will have to change.
Not everything works for everything, but not all tactics are useless either.

EDIT: Let me add that I love these type of discussions. I'm dealing here with adults of varying experience. Trust me when I tell you guys I learn a lot from you guys. You should see some of the other forums I used to visit. I gave up trying to deal with them.

EDIT #2: I also forgot to mention my home shotgun is a Benelli M1 Super 90. So racking the slide is a moot point. :D

I love these discussions too! There is a BIG difference between this forum and others. Here we can have a drink(whiskey for me too, plz:D) and put out different scenarios. I dislike the other places where the "I know it all and your opinion doesn't count" is the general attitude. Yup, I get it, saw what you saw on other forums. Plus we have pig here, he has seen the same and is darn good at keeping COTEP life in line.
I do think you will find most people won't depend on anything visual or vocal in a SD situation. But, with you being an LEO, your situations have alot more variables. I have me and two young sons, a young daughter and a wife who shoots a little. In a parking lot they will go low and scatter, we have key words. At home the boys have shotties and gather the others in a safe room, call 911, while I keep the only access to that room clear with an M1A/1911 combo. Creeps against a family is the same as "I don't care about your life and I know you are sh*t scared, against a family". "cept I ain't sh*t scared.

In a parking lot you have a marked car, uniform(two very effective tools), and maybe backup. The possibilities of the "scaredness" being reversed on to the BG's shoulders are endless. More then likely they will try to escape, knowiing you have firepower and they will end up in the big house. In my case they have little to fear until I start shooting and moving, then they will wake up.

So, we have two different lifestyles. But in the dark, in the middle of the night, at your house, the window breaks, your eyes clear and you see the silhouette(s) standing/moving in the living room, we become the same person. Light that Benelli up and ask questions later. I love the Castle Doctrine.

[AutoMag]

That is why I like this forum. We can have a discussion, and we all know that not everyone agrees with what someone else might but we do not get to the name calling and bickering as on other forums. You all know what I mean!!!:)

Another thing we an kid around and most of the time it is not taken seriously as we are all one big happy family here!!!:D

You also Clyde.............you ole bat!!!!!:D

[milkmanjoe]

That is why I like this forum. We can have a discussion, and we all know that not everyone agrees with what someone else might but we do not get to the name calling and bickering as on other forums. You all know what I mean!!!:)

Another thing we an kid around and most of the time it is not taken seriously as we are all one big happy family here!!!:D

You also Clyde.............you ole bat!!!!!:D

+1000!!!!!(half that pertaining to Clyde):D

[AutoMag]

+1000!!!!!(half that pertaining to Clyde):D

:D:D We tease the old man but he is a great guy. I had the privilege of having him over to my house a few times when he still lived in Virginia!!! He will give you the shirt off his back if you need it!!!:)

[edgehill]

I like a forum where you can joke around and not have someone get upset at the joke. The other forum I am on can be like walking on egg shells at times.

[Riverpigusmc]

I like a forum where you can joke around and not have someone get upset at the joke. The other forum I am on can be like walking on egg shells at times.

Or broken glass

[milkmanjoe]

I like a forum where you can joke around and not have someone get upset at the joke. The other forum I am on can be like walking on egg shells at times.

Or broken glass


When I, ahem, left the other forum, you know, via a personal visa from the management, it was like walking on shards of glass with no shoes on.
Still have not looked in, not even for one second.

[Caleb]

Back on topic :rolleyes: some people. :D

So Dave, when is the range report? :p

[BlackKnight]

Here we can have a drink(whiskey for me too, plz:D) ...
Gosh darn it! See what happens when I assume. My apologies. First round of single malt is on me.
I love the Castle Doctrine.
Me too. Unfortunately, I'll never see in this state.