Weird jam
 

I've had this a 2-3 times now.
It seems to happen with reloads 230 grain ball , 6.6 grain VV N340.
As i'm shooting, round fires, nothing noticibly different, a new round chambers, but the slide does not go completely go forward.
Can't put on the manual safety because the slide is not forward as i should.
the hammer is fully cocked, trigger won't budge because slide is not forward.

But the barrel/slide seems locked, there is no gap between rear of barrel and slide.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1328740728.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1328741276.jpg


The really weird thing, is that the slide is then very, very tight, i can hardly rack it to eject the round. It takes quite some force to cycle it again.

And if i then load some factory ammo after the failure and let the slide close with the slide release. Or i rack the slide, the new round chambers, but i get the exact same issue. Only when i rack the slide a few times empty does it go away.

I've since stripped the gun completely, could not find anything wrong , can't find any odd wear or marks.. It's just a weird occurance..
Now i could accept something in my loads was wrong, but i have a hard time understanding how this failure happens and as such what would be wrong with the load.
Did not feel like a hot load, and did not feel weaker. Even if it was weaker, how would it cause this jam?:confused:

Check your crimp. Keep it lubed up.

I don't know Doug, he said it does it with factory ammo too. That's what threw me. I can see the re-loads making him have hiccups but not the factory ammo. I think it's not an ammo problem but I'm in no way qualified to suggest a fix.

I was going to suggest that Dave will probably diagnose it for him :toast:

On the rare occasion that I have a failure to return to battery with my re-loads, I can just bump the back of the slide with the side of my fist and it goes into battery.

It's lubed with FP10 every 100 rounds
Crimp seemed fine, once the jam cleared i re-fed the round that was in the chamber when it initially jammed.. The second time it went through without a problem.. really weird.

Previous time, i had this issue, i got the round out
retried with another round from the same batch, same problem
got the round out again
put in a snap cap , no problem, hammer fell on the snap cap
got original round in a gain, same problem re-occurred
snap cap back in, no problem , hammer falls
Got a factory round in there, same problem again
out with the round
racked the slide a good 5 times without letting it slam on an empty chamber to badly..
loaded the factory ammo, gun fires
then i ran 3 mags of factory ammo , rapid fire, no problem
in with the original round of the 1st jam, goes through without a problem

i'm like huh?!

I've had it fail to battery with the cheap mec gar mags a few times
When that happened there was a visible gap between the breech face and the barrel. And in those cases i could bump it shut

This is different, as the slide does not want to move, it's feels very stuck , needs quite some effort to release.
And there is no gap at the barrel / breech face

Lube it very well with a heavier viscosity oil like FP 10 rack slide 200 times. See if that solves the problem. Run it very wet. The tight tolerances sound like the problem.

But i am running it very wet with , with FP10...Have done so from the start
In fact, every time i am done shooting, i need to wipe it clean because when it warms, the fp10 come out the sides.

Just took the slide off, it's still wet, that's how i put it away after shooting:
pic doesn't do it justice, that's pretty wet

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1328744681.jpg

Sorry Terry I guess I missed the part that it happened with factory ammo too.

This sounds like the extractor is too tight. Too tight can cause it not to go fully into battery and also make it very hard to eject a live round.

something else to check is the length of your cases. No longer than .898". Also, you may want to take a 357 case, inside champher it til the edge is sharp and scrape out the headspace ring.Sometimes, especially if your cases are shorter than the ring, crud will build up in the headspace ring(45ACP and all Semi-auto cartridges that're straightwalled, headspace on the case-mouth).

Another thing, how many rounds on the Recoil spring?

Nice tip on using the .357 case as a carbon scraper, Dave. I'm going to make a couple of them.

Would this be something i can set when i reassemble it?
Or is this a case of extractor needs to be modified?

I'll measure then, they had only been fired/reloaded once, had not measured them previously, was planning to do that on the second reload.
They are all from the same batch of factory Fiocchi.. I do't pickup other brass.

I'll look into it, but i don't think there's much carbon in there, it's been cleaned with brake cleaner before, but i'll check.

About 700 Factory Fiocchi ball + around (600) softer reloads

How long should a spring last, and do you know what number Wolfs Spring goes in a PM7/45?


I did notice that the reloads with AA#7 seemed to make it dirtier then the Factory or VV N340 loads.. I was planning to discontinue the use of AA#7.. for this and other reasons (small flake, doesn't flow well in the power meter, the power also shakes out of the shells to easy on the 650, i generally don't like the AA7)


Thanks for all the tips Guys, i'm learning things here, much appreciated!

Stijn, if you can get it I would recommend using Hodgdons' HP-38. It's the same powder as ww231 only less expensive. Burns very clean. Hodgdon owns the Winchester powder business now and all their powders are made by Hodgdon.

AA-7 is actually a little slow for the 45ACP, this and other powders at this point on the Burn-Chart may be what's causing your problem. 45ACP is a low intensity cartridge and powders for it should be on the fast side. There's not enough pressure-build to burn slower powders. If you want to stick with Alliant powder, I would recommend AA-5.

As for your spring, it should last about 3000 rounds or so, should be a 16lb.spring and the closed-end should go around the Guide-rod for proper operation.

What are using to lube the slide with? Either run it wet or use a good gun-grease like Plastilube or Tetra-Lube.

At this point, it seems that you have a fairly new gun and it's just breaking in. However, unburnt powder from the AA-7 and the lube you're using could be forming a sludge that's slowing down the slide.

One more thing it might be, what is your crimp diameter at the casemouth, should measure .470-.472.

Dave

The last of the AA7 is out , i'm sticking with the N340 now, but i'll get some faster VV next time.. VihtaVuori lists N320 , N340 and N350, i went with the middle.

Spring was/is installed as you describe

No lube, just plenty of FP10, it sweats when it warms, so i'm pretty sure it's wet enough :D


I'll check the crimp over the weekend, I'm loading 5-600 rounds , brass is tumbling as we speak..

See what I mean?? This guy is a genius!!

:D

Lane

svandamme,

Here's a good test when working up a new load or using a new bullet.

Remove barrel from slide, drop new round in chamber.

The round should be flush with the end of the barrel and should make a nice ping sound.

If it makes a thud, and the head (back of round) of the bullet isn't flush with the barrel, the bullet could be hitting the lands (rifling) of the barrel.

There are a couple things to look at.

1) case length. 2) Over all length. 3) undersized chamber 4) bad bullet profile.

Hope you get it worked out.

Greg

Greg, i do check those things, not all of them but i random pick a few out of every batch i make. And i sort my brass in batches per times loaded.
So all my bras should have had the same service life throughout the batch.

That being said , once i had it the first time, the same failure also occurs with factory ammo. I'm not sure if the reload is the cause of it, it's just that i usually shoot reloads...
The factory rounds i would think those are in fact correctly sized, so it's not clear at this time, if the issue could happen if i just shoot a box of factory ammo..
I'll also give that a try next time, got me a 1000 rd box of mag tech on the way anyway for my strategic reserve :cool:

and as for consistency of the loads..

This was @ 25 meters , did not take to much time for it :

http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...70427139_n.jpg

(i did rested my hands on the bench for that, no, i'm not zorry :) )

Dave's points are good but seems to be more a cartridge dimension or gun issue than powder as slide is not always going into battery. And if it happens with factory loads, then it seems more gun related. If chamber is clean, is it possible chamber is on the minimum spec length? I have a Razorback that does that and I have to reload on the shorter OAL than my other 8 10mm handguns (still hangs up on unfired round once in a while). Extractor needs tuning? Rounds hanging up on slide release when feeding from mag (should not make slide hard to pull back tho)? Different mag might help feeding (again fact slide is hard to pull back is a key symptom that does not fit mag issue)? Once round is fed and in battery and slide issue is a major point. Not sure I have helped any.

I have used dozens of different powders including AA7 with no significant issues. Actually most of Hodgdon's powders are made by ADI in Australia.

See third paragraph here:
http://www.cotep.org/forum/showthread.php?t=566

I think the slide being hard to pull back this the key.

I did get a bad batch of bullets, They did hit the lands of the rifling.
The slide stopped about 1/8" of going into full battery.
Some I could push the slide forward and others I'd have to pull so hard that the casing flew out, the powder all over the floor and the bullet dropped out of the mag well.:D

After that I had Extractor problems...... all caused by me.:D

I guess I'm out of suggestions. Sorry.:(

Greg

But if the bullet would hit the lands, i "should" see marks of that, right?

I don't think i noticed any, but then again, i didn't look for em either.
I'll make sure to check if it happens again, and if it does happen again, i'm keeping the problem round for post analysis.

Cleaned my brass today, all tumbled, deprimed, flash holes cleaned, lubed and ready to do a batch tomorrow.

I also got me digital caliper, had a regular one, but that's to slow to measure more things in series..

Already measured a number of shells from tomorrows batch, doesn't look like case length is an issue at all, they are all well within tolerances, there is no noticicable stretch after been fired twice (1x factory load, 1x softer reload)

Okay, let's step back and get some more info. Take the gun down, just fieldstrip it. Stick a magazine into the well and lock it in place. Now, looking down on the frame take a pic then back away a little and take another with the rails in the picture. Now, put it back together, remove the mag, lock the slide back and take a picture looking into the chamber.

Another thing, what is the overall length of your reloads? What is the overall length of the fiocchi rounds. If you could, take a pic from the side holding the barrel with the chamber straight up and a round dropped into it. Do it with both rounds.

BTW, How's Jean-Claude doing?

Not entirely sure what you wanted to see, but if this doesn't cover it, let me know.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329073658.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329073637.jpg
Went and bought a digital caliper, with inch/mm for easy posting

case lenght inch mm

Fiocchi 1.252 31.82
reload 200 grain LSWC 1.268 32.23
reload 230 grain ball 1.258 31.94

Case neck/crimp

Fiocchi 0.469 11.92
reload LSWC 0.470 11.95
reload ball 0.471 11.97

so my LSWC seem a bit long, but those never gave me any problem.
It's always been with them 230 grain copper plated ball loads "as far as i remember".

crimp looks fine ?

fiocchi
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329073680.jpg
230 grain reload
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329073699.jpg

Oh, JC, well, he's allright i think.. his real name is ean-Claude Camille François Van Varenberg , which is why he took my name and stole my thunder. :D







http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329073735.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329073756.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1329073774.jpg


On a positive note, i ran about 500 rnds of reloads through the Dillon yesterday, hardly any hickups or problems.
No missed or crushed primers, just 2 primers that weren't seated deep enough.

Since before this i only had a couple of 100 and 200 round runs, with plenty of hickups, i was quite happy to do a big run properly.
I'm getting the hang of it.

I did not deprime in this run, i deprimed before, i think that helped to smooth things out a bit.
The depriming station seems finicky on previous runs, the case doesn't always line up properly and that throws the routine out of wack.

Stijn,

In photo #3 and 4 it looks like the bullet jumped the ejector.

I believe that the way you placed them for the pictures. And has nothing to do with the problem.

One thing you mentioned are the LSWC, 200 grain LSWC 1.268 32.23 is kind of long. My max is 1.232 or 31.29

Greg

Stijn, I'm sorry I wasn't clear in my post. What I wanted was for you to remove the barrel, hold it chamber-end straight up and drop a round in.

As for your OALs, you want to run as long as you can. I run everything at 1.265 with a .470-.472" crimp(I don't use swcs). I think your LSWC are correct, that's why you never had any problem with them.

Try this, run a small batch of your 230grain reloads at 1.265. Let me know if they feed for you, I think your rounds may be too short because your magazine has long feedlips.

Stijn, and everybody else who reloads; Remember, the 1911 was designed to feed FMJ rounds at 1.265 OAL. With any round you load, the closer to that length you are, the better it will feed unless you're using Wadcutter magazines. These are easy to spot as the feedlips are very short compared to a standard or even a hybrid magazine feedlip.

I kinda haven't got much 230 grain ball left to load and them LSWC's are 50% cheaper (and great for 25 meter bullseye).

Got me a case of 1000 Mag Tech 230 grain FMJ ball on the way, i i think i'll stick with the 200 grain LSWC's for practice and volume, and keep the factory stuff for zombies and for rapidfire/double tap practice (i prefer factory for rapid fire).

Got about 30-40 of them HN 230 grain reloads left, i'll run em through next weekend. Then factory ball only.

I made about 500 of them LSWC's last weekend, so i'll see how that works , i doubt i'll get the issue again with those and if i do, i'll have a few more things to look at and i'll keep the bullet that initiated the jam for analysis.

Many thanks for the tips so far, even though the troubleshoot isn't conclusive yet, it's been a great help.
Will post my results on the next visit to the range.

Went to the range, shot about 60 200 grain LSWC, couple of mags Fiocchi Ball,
Then the last 20 of them 230 grain loads i think caused the previous jams.

Either way , no jam today..

Then i ran through a box of 50 Mag Tech, 200 grain LSWC
And i mean ran through, rapid fire, just letting her rip with 5 mags filled to the max. 8 rds each...

My oh my, that Mag Tech ammo is fire and brimstone, i'm talking big boom, plenty of sparks and smoke coming out the front end it wasn't pretty.

but the gun did not jam


At this point i'm convinced that the gun is not the cause, there must have been something wrong with one of those reloads.. I just don't know what, nor do i understand the mechanics of the failure/jam.

I did get me a shooting chrony, so i can measure my loads, better quality control.
To bad it didn't work with the indoor lighting @ the range, fluorescent lights
should have read the manual before hand.. gonna find me some LED strips to put on the diffusor, that ougtta do the trick.