FBI 9mm Justification.
 

Good article. Enjoy.
http://looserounds.com/2014/09/21/fb...ampaign=buffer

that was a fun read...favorite line is:
LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident

this is all true true...can attest first hand of this. Its really sad though.

I'd be curious to see a comparison between LEO's, trained/competitive civilians and military personal regarding accuracy with a handgun. Though military relies primarily on long guns I'd *think* they'd have the highest hit percentages but I'd really like to see the tale of the tape.

you know I think that the trained competitive person would have the hands up. They practice a lot and shoot a lot. Military doesn't emphasis (i don't think) on pistols so I bet they would be a close second.

I second this. Military used fire to supress an enemy as well. Also remember military and LEO usually carry a lot of mags. More mags equal more rounds, more rounds usually means more shots taken. I carry 11 in the gun and 10 in the spare mag. LEO probably have 60+ so no need to leave it on the field so to say.

Wait for Brownie to chime in on this one.....He teaches pistol skills to keep you alive, with emphasis on hitting your target. To me the key is practice, more practice, and then practice alot more. But with the right skills.

Absolutely! Just the other day I was experimenting with a drill someone taught me. At seven to 10 yards I was bouncing a golf ball to about my own head height, drawing and putting two rounds accurately on target before the ball hit the ground again. This was done from a relaxed position. In other words without my hand on the weapon. I then timed the ball. It came to about 1.3 seconds. It was a pretty cool and fun drill.

That drill sounds like alot of fun, a good way to practice without boredom setting in. Well, boredom for some people...if I'm shootin' I'm happy.

Hench the need for 17 or more rounds of 9mm :eek:

Good to see you up and running this morning Joe, sorry we missed each other on the call and hope the boys practice went well.

Competitors learn to run the gun very efficiently in competition [ C ]. Yet they draw to eye level for every shot, and as you know, that's not the most efficient way to skin the cat under 12 feet when you're behind the curve, there are other more efficient/effective skills that can be employed.

There's learning to shoot and hit and manipulate the weapon and then there's learning how to stay alive with a weapon. Skills that could be employed, and should be employed are not employed in the games.

Put the average competitor [ only shooting in matches ] in a fof scenario, what they do in C isn't what you'll see them use in the field. That's a HUGE difference, and one that people who recognize it will seek others who can impart the skills of staying alive. That involves not just the shooting portion but the tactics portion.

I always laughed at how one could get a walk through of the course of fire before shooting it in C. There's no such thing in the real world, just another example of the disparity between the street training and the C's

yup...."up and running".....more like walking slow and aching....LOL

I consider myself lucky, never got into the shooting games. I get it how they could be fun, test the nerves in their own capacity, maybe make new friends. Excitement oozes from what I read. Just not for me. For a decade I have been shooting with a DI up in SC, and the last few years with you, and with Bob. Your methods of deploying a pistol on target, with speed, are fairly easily learned. It is the practice after learning that people must keep up on. Since our last class I have put minimum 20k rounds on steel practicing. The zipper is damn near instinct. I catch myself sometimes with a round or two in the ground before hitting steel. But I could babble on, people need to experience your class to get it.

Appreciate the kind words Joe, stay well, see you in about 6 weeks now. Looking forward to it, just two range officers this go round, everyone else has bailed except xbluelight [ rick ]

No sweat....I can RO for ya too...I keep my certs silent...till today

Appreciate the assist Joe, you're the man

All great points. It occurred to me before I read the article that I shoot a lot more often now than when I was in the Marine Corp. Not only more but despite tired old eyes and NO quick twitch muscles, and damn few slow twitch as well, I shoot better now than I ever did then. My weapons are much better and my focus is too. I think the realization that at 74 I need to be super careful and evaluate more decisively helps along with the realization that feats of strength are days of old. I remember more clearly my Calculus prof saying," Dennis, bull strength and ignorance is a hard way to go through life." that was along time ago. I have tried both and he was right. The edge is situational awareness at all times no matter how young, old or well prepared. Pony

I thought about taking Bob's RSO class this weekend so I could volunteer to help with this but I couldn't swing it.

I'll finally get to meet up with you.....in Volusia???? Man oh man, I forgot all about the books....running with kid stuff, life gets away from me

But, but, but what if you train for and use both. I'm never going to beat Rob Lathem, I shoot Comp for fun and to practice my gun handling skills. IMHO they are not mutually exclusive.

IMHO they are not mutually exclusive.

Sorry if my comments led you to believe I thought they were. Of course they can't be as many skills necessary for both apply equally. Hand hold, trigger control and, sight alignment are basic skills that can and should be honed to a higher level than most take the time to learn until it's subconsciously ingrained.

Learning to shoot under pressure, even self induced as it may be, is a learning experience and over time stress is less apt to affect outcomes/shooting scores. That puts the games squarely in the camp of increasing some ability to run the gun under some stress level until the competitor gets comfortable shooting thusly. Though the stress induced in the games isn't near the same, any system that produces some stress is more beneficial to shooting for self defense than never having had to shoot under any more stress than one isn't happy with not being able to drill one hole.

Now, as for scoring in the games, they suck at getting people to realize you don't NEED A hits or down Zero hits on the street. In fact, I think more will take too much time trying to acquire an A or down Zero hit on the street if they are heavier into the games for most of their shooting time.

Another point of difference I mentioned previously, I'd use 1/2 hip, 3/4 hip or zipper more often on the street and using only one hand, but in the games, I'd got to line of sight or near line of sight and two hands "for the score". If one were to zipper in the games, one would be wasting time for score, where on the street, the zipper is a fight winner and in the games it's a detriment to score.

Some of the tactics that win games can get you killed on the streets, like having to reload form cover when on the street, I'll reload as I'm moving to cover, no wasting time waiting to get to some position before I can recharge and get back in the fight.

I played the games for some time, mostly plate shoots which gave practice for QK pistol skills on multiples. IPSC and IDPA, not so much but enough to know I didn't want my present skills to be altered or degraded by the gamers rules.

There are no rules on the street and there's no "look see" beforehand, of the course of fire on the street. In the game of staying alive, there are no do over or procedurals. My biggest concern for gamers is that those procedurals they try to avoid for score could get someone killed unnecessarily ;)

And gunfights are 360 without sidelines and endlines. Annnndddddd Ya don't use cover as a rest.................

Good points. I don't shoot IDPA for the questionable rules. That and my race gun would be a little hard to conceal.:D

Here dat :cool:

IDPA has come out with some bizarre rules for sure, so our club now has "Defensive Pistol" matches that use mostly 2012 IDPA rules with some modifications. Our reload rules are more "real world."

IDPA is not a substitute for formal training, and before I started competing I did have an instructor work with me. But I still believe it is of immense value in developing muscle memory, learning to operate your pistol instinctively under pressure, and for testing your gun and ammo. Even though the pressure can't be compared to a life and death situation, the instinctive operation of your pistol WILL transfer. It has uncovered numerous flaws in my technique, and I have been able to adjust accordingly. For example I learned that when I have 8 rounds in a mag, I tend to not seat it completely on a tactical reload. Then after firing the next shot, the mag drops out. Knowing this, I have started carrying 8 round mags loaded to 7 rounds for my EDC. I tried this in a match and had no problems with seating the mags. I was at a disadvantage from a gaming standpoint, requiring more reloads, but I was never left with an empty pistol with a full mag on the ground.

I have started competing with a compact 1911 because that's what I carry. Shooting the plate racks didn't really bring out the difference between the two compact 1911s I have. But running them in an IDPA match was an eye opener.

How many USPSA competitors CARRY the same gun they use for competition? hmmm?

http://www.cotep.org/forum/picture.p...&pictureid=866

None. That why I didn't play the games when I had the extra cheese. Now that I don't I just practice what I learned in the defensive courses I took.

Another note....

Brownie you still doing the class at OSS in November. Was needing the dates to make sure the little women is off one of the days so I can wander out and meet ya.

OSS is Nov 15/16, hope to see you there on one of the days, always welcome to stop
in. Lunch time probably best for the meet and greets, anywhere from 12-12:30 we break for lunch but show up anytime you can make it.